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Transcript of ASSK interview



*********************** Posted by BurmaNet ***********************
  "Appropriate Information Technologies--Practical Strategies"
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What follows is a transcript of the interview last February 15th
between Aung San Suu Kyi, Rep. Bill Richardson, UNDP Resident
Representive Jehan Raheem and New York Times Correspondent Philip
Sheehen.

This transcript is a slightly edited version of a printed
transcript BurmaNet has obtained.  BurmaNet has not yet obtained a
recording of the interview so this transcript has not yet been
checked against the recorded version.

BurmaNet has corrected some obvious typographical errors, but in
the main, has not corrected or changed the transcript if there is
any room for question about the correct interpretation.  Several
quotes cited by reporter Phil Shenon in articles appearing just
after the interview do not show up on the transcript.  At one point
late in the transcript,  Aung San Suu Kyi's conversation changes
from the subject of her guards to her taste in music without any
apparant connection.  Part of the transcript may be missing at that
point.

This is the first widely available transcript of the interview.  Once a 
recording becomes available, BurmaNet will check this transcript and if 
necessary, post a corrected version.

-Strider


 *************************************************************

[BEGIN TRANSCRIPT]

INTRODUCTIONS

After initial introductions, conversation immediately turned to the
fate of various NLD activists now in prison.  Aung San Suu Kyi
mentioned Min Ko Naing, Ma Thida, Tin Oo (she asked for more
information on his "kangaroo trial"), Win Tin, Aung Khin Sint (she
was aware of Professor Yokota's visit with this imprisoned National
Convention delegate), Win Htein, and Ko Myin Soe.  The Nobel
Laureate wanted to make sure this last mentioned was the same Ko
Myin Soe who had served as an NLD youth leader.  She said she would
like to know how "my other NLD youth leaders" were all doing.  Aung
San Suu Kyi asked Congressman Richardson to return and give here a
report after his visit to Insein prison.  When the Congressman
noted the SLORC had accepted all his requests, Aung San Suu Kyi
shot back insistently, "Ask for more!"

Congressman Richardson then noted he had brought letters from Aung
San Suu Kyi's husband and family, the Warden of St. John's College,
and Georgetown University Professor David Steinberg.  He mentioned
he had had lunch at the UN by way of preparation for his visit.

THE CONVERSATION

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

[Turning to UNDP Resrep Raheem]: I wanted the United Nations
represented here, though I realize that Professor Yokota could not
come.  Under the detention law, I am only forbidden to meet with
diplomats and people associated with political parties--otherwise
I should be allowed to see all other people.  Three of you now
present here are actually ruled out by the law.  Under these
circumstances, I did not want to be a party to any arrangement that
would deliberately slight the UN.

>>MR. RAHEEM:

I appreciate your concern.  I have a personal and confidential
message for you from the Secretary General.

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

Please give my regards to the Secretary General.  Explain to him
that I believe the role of the United Nations is very important. 
I also believe it is good to have a representative of the
independent press on hand here.  I do not recognize the legitimacy
of the law under which I'm being held--it is totally unjust, but if
Congressman Richardson can come here, then the UN must be able to
come as well.  And you, Mr. Shenon, should be able to come anytime
you want.  If you can't get in, just sit outside my gate!

>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

While I was at the UN, Ambassador Albright hosted a lunch where I
was able to brief several ambassadors on my upcoming visit.  At
that time I asked the new UN High Commissioner for Human Rights,
Ambassador Ayala-Lasso, to write a message for you.  You wouldn't
know it from my name, but I am also Hispanic.  My mother is
Spanish.  The Congressional district I represent has the largest
number of Native Americans of any Congressional district in the US. 
I brought you some Indian pottery as a gift.

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

I am familiar with Maria LaBoto's(sp?) work.  I remember the
pottery my mother brought from New Mexico.

>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

Just by way of introduction, I am the Deputy Majority Whip of the
House of Representatives.   My purpose in coming here is to see you
and to express to you the support of the American people, the US
Congress, and President Clinton for you, for democracy, and for
human rights here.

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

I hope you mean in fact the democratic movement, I don't want
personal support.  What we want to be supporting is the movement
for democracy and human rights.

>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

I want you to know that in my meeting this morning [with Lt. Gen.
Khin Nyunt] I pushed for the unconditional release of you and all
political prisoners.  I also pushed for a trasition to democracy.
I am here to show support for the democratic movement and also for
you. I have a personal letter for you from President Clinton. In it
he conveys his best wishes and those of Hillary too.

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

Thank you. And please thank the leaders of Congress, especially for
the latest Senate resolution on Burma.

>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

I told Secretary-1 [Khin Nyunt] that I am here to try to get a
strong message across -- that the US supports democracy and human
rights in Burma. We want the release of all political prisoners.
You may be asking why I was allowed to see you. I think it came
about because I pressed hard for a meeting when I spoke to [Lt.]
Gen. Khin Nyunt last August.

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

Please go on pressing.

>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

He told me that, if I returned, he might consider allowing me to
see you. During the debate in Congress over the North American Free
Trade Agreement [NAFTA], I was very visible, as was my relationship
with the president. So I think he [Khin Nyunt] hoped he could
convey a message to the president through me. Incidentally, the
president wanted me to deliver this pen to you.

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

I am one of the few people who still uses an ink pen. [Upon
unscrewing the cap, laughter ensued when it turned out to be a
ballpoint pen made to look like a fountain pen.

>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

How are you?

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

Let me make it clear I want no personal favors. My health is, in
general, good. I have been told, though, that I have spondylosis,
a degenerative disease of the spine. I have discomfort in my
shoulders all the time; I have to sleep on a completely flat
surface. I've also had various infections recently, nothing too
bad. Because of the spondylosis, though, I can't sew anymore. It
apparently comes from reading and sewing too much. I was given a
recent checkup and the infections seem to have all cleared up.
There is nothing I want for myself.

>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

I am prepared to ask for anything you want. I brought you some CD's
and even a Rod Stewart tape.

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

I am acquiring new musical tastes. My younger son Kim has a
walkman. Through him I've become familiar with Bob Marley, who's
very good.

>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

I hope we aren't going to be staying too long.

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

They can't throw you out. This is my home.

>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

How do you view the current situation? What path you see for
improving the situation here?

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

Before I state my views, would you all tell me what you think of
the National Convention?

>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

It is not a serious effort. It is the position of the US that the
1990 election results must be respected. We have no confidence that
the [National Convention] process is significant. We have pressed
for a specific timetable for a transition to democracy. We want to
know when there will be elections, under what conditions they will
be held, what international observers will be permitted.
 
>>MR. RAHEEM:

I see the National Convention as very formalistic. This continues
to worry me. I understand that in certain circumstances there is a
need for formalism and one must be careful not to see formalism
itself as dangerous. But there are aspects of the National
Convention that bewilder me. Debate there seems very sterile.
 
>>MR. SHENON:

It is a sad display. I did have access to the Convention at one
point and saw something called the NLD there, including Aung Shwe
and its other leaders. They were terribly fearful. There was no
real debate going on.
 
>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

It is very much a facade.
 
>>MR. SHENON:

People outside Rangoon are more talkative.
 
>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

Mandalay people are braver. In Rangoon people feel more under the 
eye of Big Brother. I think the National Convention is a farce. If 
people can't speak, if they are just there to nod their heads, then
that is not a convention. I cannot accept it as seriously
representing the will of the people. The role of the political
parties needs to be highlighted. They should be allowed to exist,
to move and act as real political parties. This point has to be
pushed. There are many able and dedicated people in the NLD. But
under the current circumstances, there is no use talking about a
multi-party democracy. Can you visit party offices?
 
>>MR. SHENON:

I visited the NLD offices here in Rangoon and I have never seen 
people so scared. They still had your picture up, but they asked me
to leave.
 
>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

I would tell them, 'Don't be scared.' Being frightened is so 
exhausting.
 
>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

What are the prospects for national reconciliation?
 
>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

I have always asked for dialogue. This is something that we have to
work for, but what can we do if the SLORC refuses to talk. I have 
always said Secretary-1 should talk to me.
 
>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

I see that the key to democratic change here is dialogue between
you and Secretary-1.
 
>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

--Between the SLORC and the NLD and between the SLORC and the 
democratic forces. I don't want to see a new personality cult
develop.  When we set up a democracy here, we need to base if on
solid principles, not individual persons. In all of Asia we see
this [emphasis on individuals]; we should try to change this. It is
only human that people should care for me. But just releasing me
tomorrow would not help if the SLORC won't take the really
necessary actions. What they do to me personally is between them
and me. This isn't simply between two people. What is needed at
base is a spirit and will for reconciliation. I always said I
wanted to talk to them. The only answer to Burma's problem is
dialogue. I am ready any time, but they don't seem terribly keen.
I don't know why.
 
I will not send a message. He [Khin Nyunt] can send a message if he
wants to. He can come himself, for that matter. But in a way, it
actually seems our views on dialogue should be the same.  There was
an article in the New Light of Myanmar concerning peace talks with
the ethnic minorities. The articles maintained that, in that
context, dialogue was the best answer for the country. that is just
what I say as well. But a dialogue is not a debate. There will be
disagreements and arguments. Dialogue does not involve winners and
losers. It is not a question of losing face. It involves finding
the best solution for the country.
 
>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

The SLORC maintains that you rebuffed their attempts to talk to you
in the  1992/93 time frame.
 
>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

There was no such move to have a dialogue with me. They only 
wanted to talk about the terms of my departure from the country. 
That's apparently what they told the Japanese. At that time they 
allowed my family to visit and were quite nice to me. Without 
saying anything definitive, they indicated they were prepared to 
negotiate with me on the terms of my departure. On the question of 
letting my family come, I initially opposed this until such time as
other prisoners had been released. In the end I let Michael come in
part to show I was ready to compromise. They need to understand
that flexibility if not a weakness, rigidity is not strength. There
has to be give and take. Also, the SLORC shouldn't think that
easing my personal circumstances will make a difference -- I don't
in fact care about those circumstances.
 
And as far as my getting released any time soon, that is not an
issue. They brought me notice in January that my detention had been
renewed until January of 1995. I told them they could not do that. 
They explained that under the law, the Central Committee (which I 
have never heard of) made the decision to put me away for the
initial year. Then, I was told, the law allows for the Council of
Ministers to extend this for a total of three additional years
[this was later changed to five years]. I told my Colonel Than Tun
that all existing norms of international law forbid such a
procedure, that the term of detention must be conducted from the
initial date of incarceration unless explicitly stated otherwise.
It must be exhausting for him to lie to me like this.
 
>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

So the SLORC tried to pressure you to leave?
 
>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

They tried to pressure me to leave the country with ways no self-
respecting government should employ. But that is between me and 
them. Besides, others are suffering a great deal more than I am.
 
>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

What do you want the SLORC to do at this point?
 
>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

We must start with dialogue. Only then can we know what steps are 
really needed. The SLORC can sort out their fears in the process of
holding such a dialogue. Look, for example, at the issue they are 
making of my marriage to Michael. It is the British who should be 
complaining. The SLORC doesn't seem to have a very clear 
understanding of Burmese women. [Far from worrying about my 
coming under foreign influence from my husband] they should be 
feeling sorry for Michael!
 
>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

Do you think the ethnic groups are committed to democracy?
 
>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

In principle they are committed. They must understand that only a 
system of liberal democracy can guarantee their rights. But at the 
same time, I know they are suffering. I can understand them taking
the steps they are taking.
 
I believe there is great support for democracy, but people are 
frightened. After thirty years of dictatorship, it takes time to
change. The Burmese people are very intelligent. Maybe they are not
as active as they should be for their rights, but they are not
easily fooled. They must try to develop greater self-confidence.
International support can help in this regard.
 
I think of the people every day, including my colleagues in the
NLD. But people must be united if they want to get democracy. When
I first stated the NLD, some students went off to the border. Some
old and respectable people (not the students), suggested taking up
arms. Many people felt that arms were the only way to oppose the
military. There were so many different views. But the essential
thing was to stay united. Even now I will not disavow the students.
We must not be too quick to condemn the methods of others. And we
really must be brave.
 
A 90-year-old abbot I knew gave me two pieces of advice. He told me
that, to achieve happiness, you must be prepared to suffer. He also
warned me that anyone who indulges in honest politics must be 
prepared to be reviled. Monks like him have given me some wonderful
advice over the years. Though an old and religious man, he
certainly understood politics in Burma.
 
>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

Do you have a message for President Clinton?
 
>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

I would like to see a clear-cut posture from the US on Burma. If
you want to support a movement that is being attacked from all
sides, you must be clear-cut. I very much appreciated the terms
used by the Senate [in its recent Burma resolution]. Statements in
favor of the democratic movement would be very welcome.
 
>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

Just this kind of message of support is contained in the
president's letter to you.

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

Mr. Raheem, I have studied the UN's 1988 report on structural 
adjustment and structural reform in Burma. That report very
correctly drew an important distinction between growth and
development. It contended that growth can in fact be harmful to
development. Countries now talking about economic cooperation as a
way to help Burma politically should consider this fact.
 
>>MR. RAHEEM:

We understand that a country's strength is in its people. If the
family does not feel safe, if there is no human security, then
there is no political future for that country. Actually, following
on action last summer in New York, the UNDP here has revamped its
program, aiming its activities at the village level. Our programs
now really try to start with people first and work backwards.
 
>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

Even back then I think you at heart had it the right way around.
The Burmese people are not inward-looking, though the government
may be.
 
If I had one single message for the international community it
would be to stress to outside countries that the success of any
economic system is confidence -- confidence between government and
business. There is no use having a National Convention if no one
has confidence in it. No economic measures can help without popular
confidence in them. Trade will not lead to real progress without
popular confidence (i.e., or the people in their government). In
the final analysis, we need confidence between those who want
democracy and those who don't.  We need this for the sake of the
country.
 
>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

Sweden, Australia, and others have all been suggested as possible 
mediators for Burma. Professor Steinberg spoke at a conference in 
Australia which recommended Australia seeking the role of mediator.

There has also been talk of a special UN envoy for Burma. Do you
find this kind of talk valuable? Some say that it is best for the
Burmese to sort things out on their own.
 
>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

There is no harm in mediation. But in the end the Burmese must work
it out for themselves. This is not like the Middle East where you
had two different peoples in conflict. In that kind of a situation,
mediation is always useful.
 
In this context, I want to say that, while I can't speak for
everyone, I personally have nothing but goodwill toward the army.
I mentioned this once while in Shan State, where there was a
discussion on the role of the army. Students then criticized my
position in an open letter. But I can't help feeling as I do. Maybe
my reasoning is influenced by subjective factors; maybe it's
because I do see the army very much as my father's army. Maybe
there are other reasons as well that I feel this way.
 
>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

As you know, there are many Burmese in the United States and 
Europe, many Burmese dissidents in Bangkok and the US. What would 
you say to them?
 
>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

I would say "unity". They must not squabble. It is very normal for 
dissident groups to do just that. But they simply must not -- if
they can't agree on something, then they must put it on ice. This
is one of the reasons I don't want the focus to be on individuals
-- there can't be all chiefs and no Indians.
 
>>MR. SHENON:

But it may be useful internationally to focus on a personality like
yours.
 
>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

I don't mind being a figurehead if that helps. We all appreciate
being appreciated, but I'm thinking of Burma in the long-term.
 
>>MR. SHENON:

How should the outside world treat Burma now? Should trade be 
limited?


>>MR. RAHEEM:

Trade does appear to bring an element of greater openness. There 
does seem to be some value in trade as an instrument for increasing
international contact.
 
>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

I think you are all talking about sanctions. There are two schools
of thought on them, and the controversy seems never to have been 
resolved. People don't want to do anything that would be harmful to
ordinary people. But is existing trade with Burma really helping
the people or allowing the government to dig in its heels?  Which
examples do people cite of economic development preceding
democratic development? People cite the ASEAN countries, but their
pattern of development is different from Burma's. Take Indonesia as
an example. 
Suharto came into power under different conditions. Confidence here
in Burma is low because of the way the election results were not 
respected. That kind of thing shakes confidence. Nothing similar
has happened in ASEAN. In those countries confidence in the
government existed. Suharto was even able to cut military
expenditures.
 
>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

Professor Steinberg talks about the approach used by Japan and 
Singapore, i.e., in favor of greater engagement with SLORC. They 
believe that aid should be increased without conditions.
 
>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

How do they believe this will improve the situation?
 
>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

But the SLORC suggests they are relaxing their policies. There is
the apparent agreement with the Kachins, the permission for the
UNHCR to work in Arakan State, the permission for me to meet with
you. They are granting all my requests. They say they are moving in
the right direction -- that it is for the United States to respond.
 
>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

I can't follow your argument. I thought you were suggesting the 
SLORC was acting in response to economic help, but now you seem to 
be saying they are doing so in the hope of getting economic help.
Are the improvements you talk about the result of better economic 
conditions and constructive engagement, or do they come about as a 
result of the SLORC's hope for receiving concessions?
 
>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

The Japanese and Singaporeans seem to be saying the US policy is 
too harsh, that to get the SLORC to do more on human rights, you 
have to engage with them. Some in the United States say we should 
pursue a "carrot-and-stick" policy. There is a perception in the
United States that we are becoming isolated on Burma. What should
US policy be?
 
>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

I am not sure that the advocates of "constructive engagement" are
clear. What is the stick supposed to be?
 
>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

The stick is aid. Withholding World Bank assistance, limiting UN
help and foreign investment, refusing Asian Development Bank loans.
Japan says that you improve relationships by giving aid. Some say
the US policy has only a stick. After all, we don't even have a US 
ambassador in Rangoon, we are always criticizing the SLORC.
 
>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

What do the Japanese consider to be their stick? Is it not giving
aid?  They want removal of that stick?
 
>>MR. RAHEEM:

I think we need to rephrase the terms of the debate.  What is being
talked about is "reform with support." The idea is that reform has
its price. When you urge reform, you should be prepared to support
it with technical help.
 
>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

Are we talking about merely economic reform or also political
reform? If so, then you have to impose conditions. Conditional
assistance is all right, but their need to be meaningful
conditions. For me, dialogue is the condition. Dialogue can lead to
many things. I am criticized for being "confrontational," but all
I want is to confront people across a table. The SLORC is willing
to talk to armed insurgents but it is not willing to talk to legal
political parties. I have no conditions for talks. I will meet with
the SLORC at any time.
 
>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

[Lt.] Gen. Khin Nyunt told me he sends people to talk with you.
 
>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

I told Col. Than Tun to stick to administrative matters. Of course
I rebuffed [Khin Nyunt] on the subject of my departure.
 
The SLORC is under a lot of pressure, international pressure.
Pressure always works. [But if a dialogue can take place,] I hope
we will all be better friends afterwards -- provided we all have
positive goodwill. Please don't think of helping me as a person,
think of helping the democratic process. The only way to achieve
progress is to have a dialogue.
 
But time is important. Look at the situation in South Africa. If
talks between the ANC and the government had taken place ten years 
earlier, the situation which Nelson Mandela will inherit would not
have been this bad. The rivalry with Inkata would not have been so
extreme. To those who think taking one's time will help, I say look
at Yugoslavia, where no one ever addressed the underlying lack of 
confidence among the various ethnic groups there. Time won't heal
all wounds.
 
>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

What is your vision of Burma?
 
>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

It is not a question of my vision. I am happy to be a figurehead,
but I am not Burma. There are a lot of very able people in the NLD
and in the country. There are some good people even in the current
NLD. The SLORC may have the idea that your visit to me personally
is significant.
 
>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

I asked to go to Insein Prison to see other political prisoners, I
have spoken up on their behalf. But you are the symbol. You are in
fact Burma. What about your country's future?
 
>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

I have a vision of a country where we can sort out our problems by 
talking with one another. Democracy won't solve all our problems --
I have always said this. Establishing democracy here is only a 
beginning. It is not a perfect system but it is better than all the
others. In liberal democracies, people always think of talking
first and fighting last. If you fight first, you just end up
fighting to exhaustion. The word "parliament" comes from the word
"talk." It is better to talk than shout, but shouting is better
than shooting.
 
We can have democracy the Asian way, the Burmese way. Whatever 
system develops here will become unique to this country. Democracy 
is not the same in the US and the UK. There will always be 
differences. But some fundamental principles are abiding. Having 
imposed the "Burmese way to socialism" on us for so many years, I 
now dread the SLORC wanting to impose its idea of a "Burmese way 
to democracy."
 
I want a country where people are not afraid to work out their 
differences -- where people don't have to fear a loss of face or
fear losing at all. There may have to be compromises, but agreement
is always possible. Confidence is the basic ingredient.
 
>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

What framework would you suggest for the initial dialogue? Should
it be two-way, three-way?
 
>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

The initial dialogue should establish confidence, confidence in the
participants' words. Goodwill will come later. Once you can believe
the other's words, then you can develop goodwill, and then you will
be prepared to compromise. I would rather have someone say to me "I
hate your guts" and mean it than to have them lie to me. But there
has to be a minimum level of confidence, and then there can develop
goodwill.
 
I am not alone, we all want democracy. This means a system where 
the views of the majority are taken into account. I am out of touch
with the various parts of the NLD. But it seems to be that right
from the beginning we need to establish the fact that we want to
realize democratic principles, not a benevolent dictatorship.
Democracy does not mean paradise on earth but giving to everyone a
chance to do their best.
 
>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

President Clinton told me you were at Oxford, but ahead of him. He 
asked me to give you his best wishes.  He's a good man, trying to 
change things for the better in the United States.
 
>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

And he has a good wife.
 
>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

On the international side, President Clinton has set three
priorities; trade, democracy, and human rights. We've taken a tough
policy on China and MFN.  At the UN, the US strongly backed
creation of a UN High Commissioner on Human Rights, a job now to be
filled by Ambassador Ayala-Lasso. He would like to visit you.
 
>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

He is welcome. I don't mind meeting anyone, within reason. It is
not me shutting people away. I wonder why you were allowed to see
me. At first they said Congressman Rangel and two others would
come. They started talking about this in November. They gave me
three names. I offered to write to you to explain my terms, with
Michael being able to deliver my message. Or else it could have
been delivered to the US Embassy. In any event, I would have had a
copy given to the SLORC. But they didn't accept my offer. You have
to judge for yourself who is flexible and who is inflexible. So in
the end Michael had to deliver my message verbally.
 
The SLORC says Michael has agreed not to meet with diplomats here, 
and he is careful to respect that agreement. I myself have been
careful to keep to the provisions of the detention law. So I was
concerned when I learned they would not let Professor Yokota visit.
I felt I couldn't allow them to insult the UN by letting you come
while forbidding someone to come who, under the law, actually is
entitled to visit me.
 
>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

I received a written message from Michael via the State Department
in Washington. It contained your three conditions. I went to see 
Michael on my way here.
 
>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

You must be pleased to be missing out on the snowstorms in 
Washington right now.
 
>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

I also wanted to advice the UN, and I met with Asia Watch, Amnesty 
International, and other human rights groups, which all send you
their best wishes. I also met with NLD dissidents in Bangkok.
 
>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

And you met the ones in the Washington area?
 
>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

They were very excited about my visit.
 
>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

Tell them to be united.
 
>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

When I asked on August 29 for permission to visit you, I was given 
the excuse that your family was here so it would be too complicated
to see you just then. I later became very involved in getting the
NAFTA agreement [sic] through the House and was seen as being 
close to President Clinton. So in January, Burma's ambassador in 
Washington, U Thaung, approached me.
 
>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

So they wanted you here before the National Convention resumed?
 
>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

It was clear their priority was to have the visit before the
upcoming human rights meeting in Geneva.
 
>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

It is not true that I have been unwilling to talk to the SLORC. I
only refused to see some of them because they have not behaved like
officers and gentlemen.
 
>>MR. SHENON:

Are you willing to have a dialogue on any other subject?  Dialogue
is not an instant thing. It must be two-way. It cannot be a 
monologue. The only restriction on subject is the subject of my 
leaving. That is never going to take place.
 
>>MR. SHENON:

Do you see an opportunity for the NLD and the SLORC to reach an 
agreement leading to a democratic Burma?
 
>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

It must be a serious democracy, not a sham democracy. Every group 
has its role to play in the country. I have always accepted that.
We just must agree on who plays which role and how. I don't want to
talk about shared influence. I want a political system based on 
confidence. Any arrangement acceptable to the people is acceptable 
to me. One could in theory have a nominal democracy, but if there
is no popular confidence in that democracy, it would be valueless.
Look at the UK. The British don't even have a constitution at all
but everyone has confidence the system is genuinely democratic.
 
It is difficult to make pronouncements on important matters on my 
own. There are lots of us in the NLD very anxious to give the 
opposition an effective role. To do otherwise would be bad for the 
country. We need a way to keep the NLD on it toes (and an 
opposition could help us do this). This would be true even if there
were only a few in the opposition. We would listen to their views,
not persecute them. All of us in the NLD's Central Executive
Committee agreed on the importance of a loyal opposition. It's very
sad the SLORC did not take the opportunity they had in 1990. The
National Unity Party would certainly have been in a better position
under an NLD government than it is now under the SLORC. As far as
the USDA is concerned, that is nothing more than a pseudo-Golkar.
 
>>MR. SHENON:

Millions of people are concerned about your welfare. How have you 
dealt with this punishment? How did you find out about your 
receiving the Nobel Prize and what did you think?
 
>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

It is not really so terrible compared with what others have
suffered.  I have not been beaten, I can read and listen to the
radio.

I heard about the Nobel Prize from the BBC.  The only reason I
received it was because so many people suffered.  I had heard that
Havel put forward my name.  The weekend before it was awarded I
heard on the BBC and VOA that I was one of the frontrunners.

>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

I saw your award when I visited Michael.

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

I have seen a photo of it.  I wrote to the Nobel Committee
expressing my gratitude.  I felt happy about it because it meant
greater attention for the democracy movement.  At that same time,
I felt very humble.

>>MR. SHENON:

What about the isolation?

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

Isolation is not difficult for me.  Maybe it's because of my
Buddhist upbringing.  I have books to read and a radio to listen
to.  Otherwise, I might feel differently about the isolation.

>>MR. SHENON:

What books do you read?

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

I like biography, politics, philosophy, religion--mainly Buddhism,
international affairs.  I listen to the BBC's book program and then
ask Michael to get the books for me.

>>MR. SHENON:

Do you read the writings of Gandhi and Mandela?

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

I had read Gandhi's writings before, but now I have reread them. 
I admire Nelson Mandela very much.  He won't have an easy time.  I
fear for him.  It is not a question of his winning the elections
but of what happens afterwards.

>>MR. SHENON:

So you have new heroes?  What about your father?

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

I don't see my father as a perfect hero.  He was all too aware of
his imperfections and set out to improve himself.  That is what I
like about him.

>>MR. SHENON:

Do you look to your father for guidance?

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

I think of him often.  The big picture of him you see on the wall
here was the poster used at my first public speech at the
Shwedagon.  I think of him as nice and human, not as a cold, marble
hero.  Sometimes I think to myself, "Just you and me, isn't it?"

>>MR. SHENON:

What is the worst part of the isolation?

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

Being alone is not a problem.  I do, though, worry about other
people.

>>MR. SHENON:

Do you have access to monks?

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

When I was first put under house arrest, I wasn't allowed to offer
food to monks [Note: a standard and necessary practice for devout
Buddhists].  My mother had always made a point of making such
offerings on July 19th, the anniversary of my father's
assassination.  I tried to continue this practice.  I also wanted
to make offerings on December 27, the anniversary of her death. 
They told me I couldn't do this, so my aunt, while she was living
here, did this for me, in December 1989 and July 1990.  Since then
I haven't asked to do this again.  The SLORC used this for
propaganda purposes.  Now I won't ask for anything.  The same goes
for visits by my family.  The government says they permit such
visits as a favor, but under the law these visits are my right.  I
am only forbidden to see diplomats and politicians.  It is on the
basis of my rights that I agreed to the family visits.

>>MR. SHENON:

What about the removal of the guards from the street in front of
your house?

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

They are all next door and in the back.  I don't know how many
there might be.

>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

I understand when the Russian ambassador still lived next door, he
hired Christmas carolers to serenade you.

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

I had no idea they were serenading me.

>>MR. SHENON:

Are you ever allowed out of your compound?

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

They bring in a doctor when I need one.  I need another checkup
now.

>>MR. SHENON:

What about the stories about your going on a hunger strike?

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

Sometimes I did not eat because I had no food.  At one point they
came into my house without an invitation.  At that juncture I
wouldn't let anyone in, even my helper Maria.  They broke the locks
on the doors.  Eventually they apologized and now they only come in
on my invitation.

At one point I ran out of money.  I initially only had what money
was in the house.  I then sold bathtubs, later furniture, an air
conditioner--now there is little furniture on the first floor. 
They wanted to bring in a settee for your visit.  They sold my
furniture for me.  At the end of last year [Note: from the context,
Aung San Suu Kyi appears to mean late 1992], I decided not to sell
any more furniture.  I was seriously malnourished for about a four-
five week period.  The problem with my guards ran from the end of
1992 until the beginning of March [1993].  We then worked out a
negotiated solution.  I for one have never broken any agreements I
made with the SLORC.  They can't say the same.  At one point I was
so weak I could not get out of bed.  Was it serious?  The doctors
did not come.

>>MR. SHENON:

What is the worst part of being isolated?

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

It is worrying about my people.  I listen to the BBC World Service
as well as BBC's Burmese programming, VOA's Burmese service, and
the Democratic Voice of Burma.  It is a pity they jam it.  I can
still hear it.  Mr. Richardson, please have them unjam the DVB.

>>MR. SHENON:

Is this table where we are seated the one used by your father?

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

No, this table is more recent.  We had our NLD executive committee
meetings around it.  It has honest wear and tear marks.

>>MR. SHENON:

What about your piano?  People were concerned when they couldn't
hear you playing anymore?

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

It is very out of tune and has broken strings.  Perhaps my
neighbors were really relieved that they couldn't hear it!  I will
not sell it because it was my mother's.  It was tuned in early
1990.  I could get it repaired now if I asked, but it would have to
be removed to do the work at this point and would be very
expensive.  Please don't ask to have it fixed.

>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

Senator Thad Cochran led a delegation here in December and he
subsequently sent a letter to you.  Did you ever receive it?

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

No, I never received it.  This points up one of the reasons why I
wanted Michael to deliver my letter to you rather than go through
MI [military intelligence]--with them of course getting a copy.  To
put it mildly, they haven't been straight with me.  On my part,
though, if they were not going to approve my sending you a letter
via Michael, then I was not about to sneak it out with him.

>>MR. RAHEEM:

While I was in New York last year I was shown a thesis comparing
you and Mme. Kartini.  The author felt both of fell a little short
of the U.S. feminist ideal.

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

I think Kartini is much more on the social side.  Mr. Raheem, would
it be possible to get a copy of the UNDP's most recent sectoral
review of Burma?

>>MR. RAHEEM:

Actually another has not been done, but I will be happy to put
together some materials for you.

>>MR. SHENON:

Could we go on a tour of your house?

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

My poor colonel will get high blood pressure!

>>MR. SHENON:

Did the democracy movement make any mistakes?

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

I don't think I know of a movement that never made mistakes.

>>MR. SHENON:

How are your finances now, if I may ask?

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

I'm fine.  I get part of the royalties from my book.  They come in
foreign currency, which I can change into Foreign Exchange
Certificates [FECs].  Maria can use these to buy food at the
Agricultural Ministry shops, paying at about 90 kyat per US dollar. 
Otherwise, if I need kyat I have to exchange the money at the six-
to-one rage.  [Note: the current open market rate for FECs in
Rangoon is about 110 kyat per US dollar.]  I'm sorry I can't invite
you to lunch, but I only have six eggs in the house, but this is
not because I can't afford food.

>>MR. SHENON:

What about your mother's garden?

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

She only had day gardeners.  I can't afford their rates of about 60
kyats a day plus two meals.  They [her jailers] cleaned up the
drive a bit in anticipation of your visit.  There really is nothing
to see in the house.  The other rooms on this floor are just filled
with junk.

>>MR. SHENON:

How do you communicate with the outside?

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

Maria works Monday through Friday and does the shopping. Otherwise
I have my lieutenant colonel from military intelligence, who's been
in place since 1992. I don't believe everything he says (and he
knows it), but we get along well.

>>MR. SHENON:

Is it true they had to change your guards because you tended to win
them over?

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

When I would go to the garden I would talk to them, but I don't
know if I won them over. They were always being changed, but I
think this was simply a matter of course. It is a tedious job.
There used to be fifteen guards inside the compound.  The ones
inside the compound appear to come from several agencies. At the
back they are all from the army. The ones on the street I believe
used to be at least partly from the police. I don't see guns.

Michael brings classical music, and my son more modern things. I
like the Pachabel canon and recently heard some Bocherini that I
liked. My son introduced me to the Grateful Dead. Some of their
songs are quite pleasant. I also like Bob Marley, especially his
set of songs of freedom, particularly "Stand Up for Your Rights."
I have probably read hundreds of books.

>>MR. SHENON:

What is your daily routine?

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

I get up at 4:30 a.m., meditate, listen to the radio, do exercises,
spiritual reading, bathe, read, and do household chores. After
lunch I meditate, read, and listen to music. I listen to the news
at fixed times. I also listen to music. I keep myself on a rigid
routine. I go to sleep at 9:25 p.m., after the Democratic Voice of
Burma stops broadcasting.

[Upon being presented with a New York Yankees baseball cap:]

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

Do you think Michael Jordan will make it as a baseball player?

>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

Do you have any message for the families of other political
prisoners?

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

It might not be good to approach the families... [When it was
suggested a message might be broadcast on the radio, she
continued:] My message would be the same for everyone; "Just hold
on, it's worth it... I know they have troubles, I know their trials
are worse than mine, but hold on -- it's worth it."

>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

I plan to ask the SLORC to release political prisoners to me. I
want to give them a chance to leave Burma with me if they so
choose.

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

But they should stay in Burma. Why haven't they released Min Ko
Naing?  He ought to be released immediately.


>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

President Clinton would like to make his letter to you public.

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

He has every right to do so.

>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

I plan to see Secretary-1 again at 4 p.m. today. I will also be
visiting the Shwedagon.

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

Be sure to ring the bell so you will be sure to come back to
Rangoon. On prison visits, please try to see Win Tin, Win Htein, Ko
Myint Soe, and Ko Win Hlaing. Give Ma Thida my love, I think of her
every day. I hope Min Ko Naing is better soon. You all must get
more attention focussed on these other people.

>>MR. SHENON:

Would you like to receive the New York Times?

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

Certainly.

>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

Do you have a message for Secretary-1?

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

I want a dialogue with the SLORC. It would have to be a
face-to-face dialogue with anyone from the SLORC, not an
intermediator.

>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

What form should the dialogue take?

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

We need to begin with a pre-dialogue. We must agree on how it
should take place.  This is how confidence gets established. Then
we can move on to the substantive dialogue stage.

>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

What is your principal message [to the international community]?

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

Please keep making demands on the SLORC. International pressure
does have an effect. Please don't say I said this publicly, but the
SLORC operates on the basis of emotion, not intellect.
International pressure helps a lot. Members of the SLORC are very
sensitive about what is said about them in the international press.

>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

Are you pleased with our meeting?

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

I have enjoyed it. Where it leads is unclear. We are dealing with
a very unpredictable government. The SLORC is guided by its
apprehensions.

>>MR. SHENON:

Some people say you are stubborn.

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

The only thing I have refused is to discuss leaving the country.

>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

As part of a compromise solution, would you, for example, agree to
stay out of politics for 3-5 years?

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

They can talk to me about that. It depends on what they would mean,
on the guarantees they would give for the future. I always have
wanted reconciliation. I have always advocated nonviolence. But the
SLORC doesn't seem to mind talking to armed insurgents. The SLORC
doesn't seem to mind violence. That's very sad.

>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

The U.S. has been strong in its support of Burmese democracy.
President Clinton feels strongly about you. The secretary of state
has asked for a UN special envoy for Burma. We are committed to
democracy in Burma. I want it clear that I have asked for your
unconditional release.

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

Please don't misunderstand me [i.e., when I say I am willing to
talk with the SLORC about not taking part in politics for a
specified period]. When I joined the democracy movement I made few
promises. But one I did make was that I would work for the movement
until we achieve our goal. Not holding public office is not a
problem for me. Public office is not my goal. But there are certain
values that must continue to be upheld.

If they are afraid of something, if they are serious in thinking I
have a neo-colonialist bogey behind me, then they need to talk to
me. My loyalties are to Burma. But I for one will not abuse other
countries and the international community to prove my love. I am
surprised by the qualifications for president they are proposing
for the new constitution. These reflect their misunderstanding of
democracy and the Burmese people. How can they think someone would
place Burma under foreign influence in a democratic Burma where one
is in office only so long as one enjoys popular support? The
Burmese people will only support someone who has their interest at
heart.

I am not staying here out of the fear that the Burmese people will
not forgive me for leaving. In the early '70s when I returned to
the country on one of my family visits, I was asked indirectly if
I had any interest in politics. I said then that, if ever I was
going to get involved with Burmese politics, it would only be from
inside the country. I would not like to have misled them in any
way.

The NCGUB and others are doing their best, but there must be people
prepared to stay and work for democracy from inside the country. I
am needed here. Moreover, the principle of trying to drive someone
out of their own country is totally unacceptable.

>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

Do you have a television?

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

There was a television set in the house when I was detained. I
don't watch it. I do not have a satellite connection. I asked my
colonel about getting satellite and only shortly thereafter the
government published its regulations limiting access to satellite
hook-ups. I don't know if there was any connection.

I remain optimistic. I am optimistic by nature. I also have faith
in the people of Burma.  We of course all have our faults. They are
easily intimidated, but they are also shrewd and intelligent. I
continue to believe they will get there.

>>CONGRESSMAN RICHARDSON:

How do you explain what you are doing to your sons?

>>AUNG SAN SUU KYI:

I feel guilty about not being with them, but I know Michael tries
to cope. They seem to understand.

[END TRANSCRIPT]