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Interview with ASSK



This interview with Aung San Suu Kyi was conducted by  
Dean Chapman on May 7, 1996. 
(Copyright by Dean Chapman; posted on BurmaNet by permission) 
 
DC:   How would you describe the current state of the NLD? 
ASSK: The NLD [is] operating with great difficulty because when 
      SLORC realized after my release last year, that the NLD 
      was still very much a cohesive force, they started trying to 
      make problems for us.  But we've learned to cope with it. 
 
DC:   Would you say that party members and sympathizers face 
      more intimidation now than prior to your "release"? 
ASSK: I think they were subjected to a lot of persecution 
      immediately after the elections and for a year or two 
      following that, and then things quietened down.  Probably 
      because the authorities thought that by then the NLD was 
      properly crushed.  But now that they've realized we're far 
      from being crushed  . . . they're getting more brutal. 
 
DC:   In what way exactly? 
ASSK: The authorities are now basically disregarding the law when 
      dealing with the supporters of the NLD. . . the law, they 
      hardly give it lip service. . . they will arrest somebody and 
      they will try him under some section of the law, but any 
      section they like. 
 
DC:   So they have a compliant judiciary now? 
ASSK: Oh, totally compliant.  I sometimes wonder whether one can 
      apply the term judiciary. 
 
DC:   How many NLD members are now being held for their 
      political beliefs? 
ASSK: I'm afraid I can't give you the precise number. . . [It's] 
      something that we have to guess at because the government 
      does not admit to having political prisoners, and they make 
      it very difficult for us to find out exactly how many, but we 
      assume that there are political prisoners in four figures, 
      probably between one and two thousand, but not all of them 
      are NLD.  There are non - NLD political prisoners as well. 
 
DC:   Do you think that it's now dawning on the SLORC that, 
      should they complete the National Convention, they would 
      have to hold fresh elections and that this is another reason 
      why they're stalling? 
ASSK: I do not think so.  I really can't say what SLORC is 
      thinking.  They don't consult me.  I think it is just that the 
      National Convention has not gone the way that they thought 
      it would.  That is why they're having difficulties bringing it 
      to a conclusion. 
 
DC:   It has been six years since the last elections.  Some people 
      are thinking that the time is coming when there should be 
      new elections. 
ASSK: Well, I do not think that there is any point in having new 
      elections until they've resolved the problem of the old 
      elections, and, moreover, I would not trust any election held 
      under the authority of SLORC.  Since they have had this 
      experience of 1990, I do not think that they will go in for 
      free and fair elections again. 
 
DC:   So which authority would you be willing to participate 
      under? 
ASSK: It would have to be a democratic monitor. 
 
DC:   Which constitution would you hold as legal and binding? 
ASSK: A constitution that is drawn up by a genuine National 
      Assembly made up of representatives of the people. 
 
DC:   So there has to be a new constitution? 
ASSK: Yes, I think there has to be a new constitution, but not the 
      one that is being drawn up by SLORC. 
 
DC:   In your speech last Saturday (4 May) you were talking 
      about Khun Sa and the fact that he could talk with the 
      SLORC and make a deal, and yet the NLD is completely 
      snubbed.  Could you clarify your position? 
ASSK: I was just responding to a letter which had come up saying 
      that at one time SLORC said that Khun Sa was a drug 
      dealer and that they would never, never, never, never have 
      any dealings with him.  He would simply be treated as a 
      drug runner and would be crushed and annihilated.  And 
      here they are on very good terms with Khun Sa, and there 
      are rumors flying around that he even has a house 
      somewhere along here ...  Living very comfortably.  The 
      letter that came up was signed by somebody who said that 
      he was a member of the armed forces .  He said that "we 
      were made to fight Khun Sa and now look at what's 
      happened."  So I was just saying that looking at it from one 
      side, this is very bad because one expects a government to 
      honor its word, and one does not expect a government to 
      collaborate with drug runners.  But on the other hand, I said 
      it's not so bad because if they can even talk with somebody 
      they declared a drug runner with whom they would never 
      have any dealing, it may establish the possibility that they 
      will also have to change their tune about never talking to 
      the NLD.  And I just pointed out that we have never harmed 
      the people of Burma, nor have we ever killed a single 
      member of the armed forces, as Khun Sa and his troops 
      have.  If they can come to some agreement with Khun Sa, 
      then there are many, many more reasons why they should 
      be able to come to some agreement with us. 
 
DC:   Have they given any indication that they'd like to talk to 
      you? 
ASSK: I do not think that they have any intention of opening the 
      kind of dialogue we have in mind, which would have to be 
      substantive political dialogue.  I think they now know that 
      the kind of dialogue they had in mind is not possible.   I've 
      been asked by some people whether I was not disappointed 
      because SLORC obviously does not have any intention of 
      starting a dialogue with us.  I reply no, because I think what 
      they have now recognized is that the kind of dialogue we 
      have in mind will not be possible.  So when they finally 
      come around, as they inevitably will have to, to the idea of 
      dialogue to solve the problem of the country, they will 
      understand that there has to be substantive political 
      dialogue. 
 
DC:   If there is no dialogue in the impending future, what action 
      is open to the NLD? 
ASSK: We are a political movement, not simply a political party, 
      and as with other political movements we continue with our 
      work.  We want dialogue, and we think that in the end, 
      eventually there will have to be dialogue.  That's the only 
      way through which such situations are resolved, but that 
      does not mean we're just going to sit and wait for a 
      dialogue to drop down into our laps.  We continue with our 
      programs.  Obviously, we don't talk about our future 
      planning. 
 
DC:   How do you view the civil disobedience that's been 
      happening in Bangladesh, and is bringing about change 
      there? 
ASSK: Well, they, of course, have a democratic government in 
      place.  Perhaps democracy was not a hundred per cent in 
      situ but certainly it was a democratic government and the 
      opposition with the support of enough people to make its 
      movement effective brought about the change that they 
      wanted.  This is what happens obviously in democracies, 
      and this is what should be allowed to happen in every 
      country where the willof the people is respected. 
 
DC:   In your speeches you've been describing Nelson Mandela's 
      transformation from prisoner to president. . . 
ASSK: Actually, I haven't got anywhere near there yet  I just 
      started reading about Nelson Mandela last week, so I've 
      only got to the time when he was in Fort Hare. 
 
DC:   But I was thinking about the part played by the ANC and 
      that they had a very strong military wing. 
ASSK: Yes.  Of course, the South African situation was in some 
      ways very much worse than the situation in Burma.  Also in 
      some ways it was better.  When you consider the state of the 
      black townships in South Africa and the volume and the 
      hatred and the brutalization of the young people, it was far 
      worse than anything that is going on in Burma.  But on the 
      other hand, when you consider the white government of 
      South Africa, although their policy of apartheid was not 
      quite human, yet they amongst themselves did practice 
      democracy.  The whites had their own democracy and 
      democratically elected government, so they had an 
      understanding of the working of democracy.  That was a 
      plus for South Africa, which we, of course, do not have.  
      What we have is a military dictatorship that has no inkling 
      of the workings of democratic process. 
 
DC:   Do you think that Burma could become the pariah state that 
      South Africa was in the eighties? 
ASSK: There is a movement towards that now, I think from the 
      United States and probably spreading out.  The South 
      African government practicing apartheid was seen as a 
      government that was totally against the dictates of justice of 
      the law and I think people are beginning to see the 
      government of Burma in the same light.  As a government 
      that has no understanding of the basic concepts of justice 
      and humanity. 
 
DC:   Is there a De Klerk figure in Burma who has the vision and 
      the authority to bring about change? 
ASSK: Not that we are aware of.  At the moment we can't see 
      anybody who can be compared to De Klerk.  At one time 
      De Klerk himself was a tremendous hard liner and nobody 
      would have imagined that he would become the bridge to 
      have shown the way for blacks and whites to meet. 
 
DC:   In Burma itself the NLD and other people who yearn for 
      democracy can only do so much.  Do you think the 
      international community could be doing more? 
ASSK: Of course.  I think everybody could be doing more, even the 
      people in Burma.  I do not believe in dependency.  I think 
      people should be self - reliant, so I always try to urge our 
      people to try harder for the changes that they want.  They 
      should not rely on others.  We ask for, we work for, and we 
      welcome the help and support of the international 
      community.  That is only as it should be.  We do not intend 
      to live as an isolated nation.  Even if we wanted to, we 
      could not in this day and age, so we very much appreciate 
      the support of the international community, and we'd like 
      the international community to do more.  We are not 
      putting the responsibility of bringing democracy to Burma 
      on the international community.  The main responsibility is 
      ours, but we would like to have the international 
      community soundly behind us. 
 
DC:   Do you think the UN should declare Burma's seat vacant 
      and withdraw it from the SLORC? 
ASSK: The NLD has not gone as far as considering that question, 
      but we take these things a step at a time, so let's see how 
      things go. 
 
DC:   The SLORC perceives the investments that are coming in to 
      Burma as examples of progress towards establishing a 
      modern developed nation.  This would appear to be nothing 
      more than image making. 
ASSK: Yes, of course, they do not understand what development 
      really means.  We like to think of development in terms of 
      development as defined by the UN.  It has to be more than 
      just economic growth.   In Burma even the economic 
      growth is not as impressive as all that if you have the 
      correct figures. 
 
DC:   So you're talking of development tha would benefit the 
      people? 
ASSK: It's got to be development that comprises progress on a 
      social and a political front as well as the economic front. 
 
DC:   Is a privileged class now forming in Burma? 
ASSK: Yes, well, what is going on in Burma is cronyism, the kind 
      of cronyism that flourished in the Philippines under Marcos.  
      When a few people connected to the powers that be got 
      extremely wealthy while the rest of the country got poorer 
      and poorer. 
 
DC:   Many of the infrastructure projects now in Burma are being 
      built with forced labor, especially children, building roads 
      and railway embankments.  The major benefactors of these 
      are the army, foreign investors, and tourists.  What's your 
      opinion on this? 
ASSK: There's no way you can make forced labor right.  The 
      government tries to justify this by saying that is's not forced 
      labor -- it's volunteer labor and this is part of Burmese 
      tradition.  It is part of Burmese tradition to a certain extent 
      in that Burmese kings in the past used forced labor, but it 
      was never voluntarily accepted by the people.  The people 
      had no choice because the kings were also dictators.  And 
      now, too, we have no choice.  I do not buy this kind of 
      agument ... because there used to be slavery in the past, we 
      should go on having slavery because that's part of our 
      tradition. 
 
DC:   Do you think that "Visit Myanmar Year 1996" could turn 
      out to be a farce? 
ASSK: I think it'll probably turn out to be a flop. 
 
DC:   Instead of pursuing their own self enjoyment, should 
      tourists be avoiding coming to Burma? 
ASSK: We'd like everyone to boycott "Visit Myanmar Year."  I'm 
      not saying that they should not come to Burma, but we 
      would like them to avoid "Visit Myanmar Year" as a clear 
      demonstration of solidarity with the movement of 
      democracy. 
 
DC:   Because Burma is basically going to be the same now as . . . 
ASSK: It'll be better after democracy. 
 
DC:   There are rumors now circulating that the World Bank and 
      the IMF are about to resume issuing loans to Burma to the 
      SLORC. 
ASSK: I think they're just rumors. 
 
DC:   What of the Japanese Government possibly resuming large - 
      scale ODA? 
ASSK: We are not in favor of any government or international 
      organization resuming aid at this moment because we do 
      not think that it will help substantially towards the 
      development of Burma.  All it will do is to shore up the 
      power of the military. 
 
DC:   Certain insurgent groups have signed cease-fires or have 
      come to terms with the SLORC.  What are your thoughts on 
      this? 
ASSK: I think cease - fires are a good thing because it does mean 
      fewer people get killed and maimed, but cease - fires are not 
      permanent peace agreements. 
 
DC:   And there has to be a political debate? 
ASSK: Of course.  Unless there is a political settlement of some 
      kind there will never be a permanent peace. 
 
DC:   What form of autonomy do you envisage for the 
      nationalities in the future, should democracy come? 
ASSK: It is something that will have to be decided through a 
      genuine National Convention in which all the ethnic 
      nationalities will be represented.  It is not for us to say this 
      is the form of nation that we want to impose on all the 
      nationalities.  So all the nationalities can get together and 
      decide . . . the kind of nation that we want, which will 
      remain united and strong. 
 
DC:   What of the independence movements, such as the Karenni, 
      who still hold out for their dream of an independent nation? 
ASSK: I think one should talk to them and so should listen to their 
      views and try to understand why they want what they want. 
 
DC:   How do you view the Union Solidarity and Development 
      Association after what happened outside of your house on 
      New Year's Day (14 April, 1996)? 
ASSK: They're merely an arm of SLORC, and now it's becoming 
      increasingly clear that it is a rather reprehensible arm.   It 
      reminds me increasingly of Hitler's brownshirts.  On New 
      Year's Day they were told to go and beat up the NLD 
      should the NLD try to go ahead with the fish-releasing 
      ceremony.  They're obviously no better than a gang of 
      hooligans. 
 
DC:   Regardless of the current economic development, it seems 
      that the majority of the Burmese people are having 
      problems with inflation. 
ASSK: Inflation is terrible.  At the moment what is really 
      frightening is the price of rice which is so high.  This is the 
      time of year when the price of rice should be at its lowest.  
      But it's higher than it has ever been, and it's going to go 
      higher and higher.  It's really worrying. 
 
DC:   What of the educated people in Burma who cannot find 
      employment, or who wish to leave the country to better 
      themselves and their opportunities? 
ASSK: It's inevitable in a nation where the government does not 
      respect education and is afraid of freedom of thought and 
      expression.  Educated people have no role to play, no proper 
      role to play.  If you are somebody who truly desires 
      knowledge and truly desires using your education, you are 
      forced to go abroad.  At the same time, the standard of 
      education in Burma has fallen so low that one hesitates to 
      call some people educated even when they gain their 
      university degree.  
 
DC:   What is your opinion on the increasing militarization of 
      Burma, and of how it's becoming too much of a burden on 
      the people to bear? 
ASSK: It is very much a burden on the people.  It is very foolish, 
      and I think that it is something the region should think 
      about and be concerned about.  What are these people 
      gathering arms for?  We keep hearing rumors.  Burma is a 
      land of rumors.  Where there's oppression there are always 
      rumors.  We hear rumors that SLORC thinks there's going 
      to be war with Thailand or that America is going to invade.  
      You know, very, very peculiar notions.  But I think they're 
      gathering arms in order to crush their own people. 
 
DC:   What do you think of the army recruiting boys as young as 
      fourteen? 
ASSK: It's disgraceful.  I hear that some of them are not even 
      fourteen.  I heard recently that some as young as twelve 
      were recruited. 
 
DC:   When I visited Meikthila recently to the Burma - Japan 
      World Peace Pagoda, I saw armed soldiers posted for 
      security reasons on the steps of the pagoda.  I've also seen 
      this in Mandalay. 
ASSK: That gives you a very good idea of the unhappy state we are 
      in when soldiers with guns are found in pagodas, and then 
      claim to have achieved law and order.  They claim to have 
      achieved stability and peace within the country.  How can 
      they claim that, when they have to post soldiers with guns 
      on the steps of pagodas? 
 
DC:   What do you think the activists overseas should be doing? 
ASSK: We think 1996 is a crucial year, and because it is a crucial 
      year, I think they should try their best to work unitedly 
      towards a common goal, which would involve keeping 
      investment out of Burma, keeping trade and business out of 
      Burma and making the international community aware of 
      the facts.  Development and economic progress can never 
      come to this country unless there is political change.