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KHRG#97-08 Part2/4 (Pa'an)



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 ABUSES AND RELOCATIONS IN PA'AN DISTRICT

      An Independent Report by the Karen Human Rights Group
               August 1, 1997     /     KHRG #97-08


 *** PART 2 OF 4: SEE OTHER POSTINGS FOR OTHER PARTS OF THIS REPORT ***

*** Some details omitted or replaced by 'XXXX' for Internet distribution. 
***

___________________________________________________________________________
__
                                   #3.
NAME:    "Saw Po Htoo"     SEX: M     AGE: 39       Karen Christian farmer
FAMILY:  Married, 2 children aged 4 and 9
ADDRESS: Bee T'Ka village, Dta Greh township          INTERVIEWED: 26/4/97

["Saw Po Htoo" fled forced labour and forced relocation in Pa'an District 
to become a refugee just before this interview was conducted.]

Q:  When did you arrive here?
A:  2 days ago.  I came to find work here because we couldn't live there. 
 
There were too many hardships.  They demanded that we do forced labour 
working for them.  We had to construct roads, work in their barracks and 
do 
portering, carrying things.  I had to go all the time, when I was in Bee 
T'Ka
I had to go 2 times a month for 5 days each time carrying things and 
building 
the road.  Sometimes we had to go for 10 days constructing the road, and 
we 
had to bring our own food.  It is a new road, from Daw Lan to Pa'an.

>From Bee T'Ka to that road it is 15 - no, 16 miles.  One time 117 of us 
had 
to go, another time it was 107 of us, and another time 32 of us.   We had 
to 
go 3 times until the road was finished.  We had to sleep on the road and 
beside the road, we couldn't go home to sleep.  They made us work digging 
earth
right through the night, and they wouldn't let us rest until 10 a.m.  The
last time I worked on the road was 3 months ago.  Every village has to go 
and 
build that car road.

Q:  Where was the Army camp where you had to work?
A:  Paw Ye Bu camp.  It used to be Battalion #339, then it was #338, now 
it 
is #99 Division.  We had to make fences around their camp, finish their 
camp 
buildings and repair their barracks.  We had to go day by day, usually 
about 
10 people per village.

Q:  When did Bee T'Ka village have to move?
A:  We moved already, we were ordered to move 2 months ago - to Taw 
Kyo, Naw Boh, Paw Ta Ka Kyo, or Plaw Po Toe, one of these 4 villages.  
There were 5 villages they wouldn't let us move to - Meh Da Ma, Naw Deh, 
Naw Ter Hta, Htee Wah Ker, and the two villages of Naw Ter, even if we 
had relatives in these 5 villages the Burmese wouldn't allow us there.  
Meh 
Da Ma is close to the Burmese post.  Five villages had to move to one big 
place:  Ta Ku Kraw, Tee Hseh Ker, Naw Ter Kee, Bee T'Ka, and Kaw Per 
Nweh Ko.

Q:  Why did they say Bee T'Ka has to move?
A:  They said the Karen soldiers ask us for food and the villagers feed 
them, 
so we had to move.  They sent a written letter once and later they came 
to the 
village themselves.  They said, "You all have to move by the 26th of 
March.  
All of you have to finish moving by then - if anyone is still in the 
village we 
will shoot every one of them dead."  They gave us from the 15th of March 
until the 26th.  [Note: they had previously been ordered to move by 6 
March 
but had not yet complied.]  Our village is very big, over 400 houses, but 
in 
10 days we all had to leave.  We were supposed to move to a place between 
Yah Kay Ko and Ber Law.  The Burmese had cut and cleared a very wide 
place there, but there was only one well for water.  If we went and 
stayed 
there we would all die, so we didn't go.  One time [between the 15th and 
the 
26th] they came to frighten us - they came into the village at night with 
many 
carts [as though they were going to force them to move immediately] but 
then they went back.  We don't know what their plan was.  But no one went 
to their place.  Some stayed in the village, some went and stayed at 
P---, 
some at K--- and L---.  The Burmese didn't come back to Bee T'Ka after 
that, they were afraid to come [because of the KNLA in the area].  The 
Karen soldiers shot them at Bee T'Ka, so then they ordered the villagers 
to 
come back to the village [to act as a human shield; when SLORC troops 
camp in villages among villagers the KNLA generally does not attack].  
They called the villagers for a meeting but I didn't dare go.  When I 
came out 
here the Burmese were still around the village, patrolling the area.  
They have 
camps at Paw Ye Bu and Taung Zone.

Q:  Are there any DKBA in Bee T'Ka?
A:  No, they only come around when the Kaw Thoo Lei soldiers go away.  
When they come they call for porters, eat people's chicken and pigs, take 
all 
our rice and don't leave us anything.

[Note: the following story concerns Nu Po and Saw Tha Dah, two brothers 
from Bee T'Ka who joined DKBA and have become notorious for torture, 
robbery, beatings and killings of villagers.  Their names have appeared 
in 
several KHRG reports.]  Nu Po from Bee T'Ka and 3 of his men are 
robbers, and they also arrested 3 people from Bee T'Ka, Pa N--- and 2 
others.  They have 3 guns.  They have robbed K--- two times already, 
one time last year and one time this year.  Her husband is dead.  They 
took 
8,000 Kyats and 2 tikals of gold, they took her Karen sarongs and Karen
dresses.  They tortured her and tied her up.  First they hit her daughter 
in
the head with a gun butt and kicked her son in the belly.  Nu Po's 
brother Saw 
Tha Dah is now at Tha M'Nya doing nothing, just working under the monk.  
These 2 brothers aren't so strong anymore - now Nu Po is sick with 
gastric 
disease.  Now the Burmese say that the DKBA has arrested Nu Po for 
robbery and sent him to Myaing Gyi Ngu.  [Tha M'Nya is the town-sized 
Buddhist retreat near Pa'an controlled by the famous Tha M'Nya Sayadaw, 
the most revered monk in Burma.  Myaing Gyi Ngu is DKBA headquarters 
on the Salween River.] 

Q:  Do you think many people will go back to your village?
A:  Some have gone back but not all.  Many are still at other villages.
I don't dare go back.  The Burmese burned about 10 houses in Naw Ter Kee
village and all their rice.  Some people are left with only a few baskets 
of
rice.  They demand rice and money for porter fees.  First they demanded 
500
baskets of paddy from us, then later 900 more baskets of paddy.  They said
they'd give us 140 Kyats for each basket, but they didn't give anything 
when
we sent them.

Now the Bee T'Ka villagers are living in small huts and eating what is 
left of 
their rice.  They don't have any belongings left because when we had to 
move 
they sold all their belongings for low prices.  Villagers from elsewhere 
came 
and bought them.  For example if we had something worth 1,000 we had to 
sell it for just 700 or 800 Kyats, if it's worth 2,000 Kyats we could 
only get 
1,000 Kyats.  Now it's not easy for people to prepare their sugar cane 
plantations.  You can't go downstream from Bee T'Ka.  If they see you 
they 
give you trouble.  Many people are hoping to come out here [to the 
refugee 
camp].  Now they're scattered all around the village. 

It took us 4 days' journey to get here.  We couldn't bring anything, just 
the 
clothes we were wearing.  There were very high mountains and I had to 
carry 
my children - the bigger ones had to walk, and I had to carry the small 
one.  
There are bombs [landmines].  Kaw Thoo Lei bombs, on the mountainsides.  
The Burmese dare not come into the mountains.  Two villagers stepped on 
the bombs.  Many Burmese soldiers stepped on the bombs too - I know of 
seven, and no one survived, all were dead.  The two villagers also died.
___________________________________________________________________________
__
                                   #4.
NAME:    "Naw Paw Na Muh"    SEX: F    AGE: 30       Karen Christian 
farmer
FAMILY:  Married, 6 children aged 7 months to 15 years
ADDRESS: Bee T'Ka village, Dta Greh Township             INTERVIEWED: 5/97

["Naw Paw Na Muh" had just fled her village to become a refugee when 
this interview was conducted.  Her brother was murdered by SLORC and 
DKBA, then they tried to arrest her and her husband as well for no valid 
reason.]

Q:  How many people came with you?
A:  60 people.  We couldn't stay because the Burmese and Ko Per Baw 
oppressed us.  My husband is just a farmer.  One day I was just staying 
there 
without knowing anything and they arrested my brother.  We tried to 
follow 
him, but there was fighting and the Ko Per Baw tried to arrest me and my 
husband.  They killed my brother, but they couldn't arrest us.  People 
told me 
not to stay there, that I should go away, so I went to stay in G--- and 
then 
came back to stay at L--.  We kept running like that, if we stayed 
anywhere 
they would have arrested us.  My children couldn't take it, it was hard 
to get 
food so I came here with my husband and my 2 children.

It was 3 months ago that they killed my brother.  His name was Saw XXXX.  
He was 23.  He was married with one child, and his wife was pregnant.  
Now 
she's close to giving birth, so she couldn't make it here.  Her parents 
are
both dead, so she has no one to help her.

I don't know why they killed him.  He had a friend named XXXX who was a 
trader, and his friend asked him to go along with him to P--- when some 
Indians [Muslims] came to trade goats.  Some people hated his friend.  
Then 
when they got there the Ko Per Baw arrested them.  [Whoever had a grudge 
against his friend probably told the DKBA that he was KNU - this 
commonly happens due to business disagreements and other grudges.]  We 
went there, but they wouldn't allow us to see my brother.  Then later his 
friend escaped,  so they killed my brother instead of him.  His friend 
escaped 
with hack wounds all over his body.  When Ko Per Baw arrest people they 
never kill them, they just give them to the Burmese to do it.  They 
captured 
him and killed him at P---.  I don't see any reason why they killed him.

It took us 4 days to come here.  We saw Burmese and Ko Per Baw along the 
way, and we ran away and hid.  In the morning we came secretly, we slept 
at 
M--- one night, at T--- one night and at T--- one night.  We had to come 
very slowly.  There are mines, and the Ko Per Baw stay just one mile away 
from the route.  They killed one Tee Hseh Ker villager without any 
reason, 
and then the Ko Per Baw leader called all the villagers who were in the 
hills 
to come back to their village.  We knew that, so we just pretended to be 
going back to our village and we came through here.

We came here because they killed my brother, and because they tried to 
arrest us and blame us when people [KNLA] went and fought with them.  
When they arrested my brother, the message from P--- [a DKBA leader] to 
his men told them to bring us back if we let them capture us, and to 
shoot us 
dead otherwise.  We couldn't hide with our children, so we came here.  
When we came here we had nothing, only my baby and the clothes on my 
body.  No pots, no blankets.

Some people come here for reasons like ours, and others come because the 
Ko Per Baw asked for money and they couldn't pay, or because they were 
beaten by Ko Per Baw.  They ordered us to go and work on the road, and 
some people have small babies and can't go so they have to pay money - 
1,000 Kyats each time.  We have to buy rice, and 1 big tin is more than 
1,000 Kyats.  So people don't want to stay.  For some people the only way 
to 
get money is to be a porter.  If anyone hires you it is 5 days for 1,000 
Kyats, 
and you can buy rice with that money.  People who have money hire others, 
and the people who are poor do it.  [When SLORC demands porters, people 
who can afford it hire others to go in their place - it is a desperate 
and 
dangerous way to make enough money to survive, and there is no guarantee 
of release after the specified time.] 

Q:  Did your village have to move?
A:  Every household had to move until there were none left - 40 or 50 
households.  They didn't tell us anywhere to go, we just had to go and 
stay 
anyplace.  They also forced Noh Law Bler to move.  They were also told to 
go any other place where they could stay.  If the Karen soldiers come and 
you don't tell them about it, they come and say, "You don't report to us 
so 
you can't stay here, get out".  They don't like us to allow the Karen 
soldiers
in our village.  They say, "If you didn't accept the Karen soldiers how 
could 
they get food?  And if they can't get food then they can't stay around."  
Many 
villages had to move, I can't count them all.  Bee T'Ka , Noh Law Bler, 
Ta 
Ku Kraw, Tee Hseh Ker, and Kwih Sgheh moved to wherever we could and 
stayed wherever we had relatives. 

Q:  Where are they building the car road?
A:  It starts at Nat Kyun and goes to Tha M'Nya [this is part of the Daw 
Lan-Pa'an road].  We had to build it for 3 months - it started 3 months 
ago.  
We had to go for 5 days, then come back and rest, and then the same group 
had to go again because there were no other groups [usually the village 
is 
divided into groups which rotate turns of forced labour].  50 people from 
the Christian part of the village had to go, and 50 people from the 
Buddhist 
part, altogether 100 people.  Women and men.  If you couldn't go it cost 
over 
1,000 Kyats to hire someone to go in your place.  We had to take our own 
food.  We had to take along a nurse for the sick people, a pastor so we 
could 
worship and a traditional doctor for people who get bitten by snakes.  
The 
road is very wide, and built as high as 2 men so you have to climb up to 
it 
with a ladder.  It took us one day to walk there.  I've been 2 times.  
This car 
road is supposed to go on to Nabu and Bee T'Ka.  Ten villages had to work 
on the road.  There were 15 soldiers there, and sometimes they got angry 
and 
fired their guns.  The villagers in T'Nay Cha [Nabu] have to build the 
road in 
T'Nay Cha, the villagers in Paw Ye Pu and Dta Greh are another group, and 
Nat Kyun and Bee T'Ka are another group.  Some of the roads are already 
finished: from Pa'an to Tha M'Nya, then at Tha M'Nya the road forks, a 
small road goes to Nat Kyun and the big main road goes to Kyeh.  We were 
working on the small road.

Q:  After building the road what did you have to do?
A:  We had to go as porters, work for them and carry their things.  We 
had 
to carry to Noh Law Bler, Ta Ku Kraw, Tee Hseh Ker, go around and then 
back to Taung Zone, Paw Ye Pu and Dta Greh.  We had to carry their food 
to Dta Greh.  They called 5 people for 5 days.  We had to go for the Ko 
Per 
Baw also.

The Burmese have camps at Tha M'Nya [actually outside the refuge of Tha 
M'Nya], Kalah Gone and Der Law.  In Bee T'Ka, first there was #28 
Battalion, then after 6 months it changed to #339 Battalion, and 6 months 
later #338 Battalion came.  There are 40 soldiers at Bee T'Ka.  They call 
the 
villagers to stand sentry through the night, but they don't give them 
guns. At 
Kalah Gone many villagers died because they were sentries and there was a 
battle.  Every night the villagers have to be sentries.  Even when the 
soldiers 
stay in the monastery the villagers have to stand sentry there.  We never 
had 
time to rest - they ordered us to do one thing and then another thing.
___________________________________________________________________________
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                                   #5.
NAME:    "Naw Hser Muh"     SEX: F     AGE: 55       Karen Christian 
farmer
FAMILY:  Married, 4 children aged 2-33 (5 children but one died)
ADDRESS: Bee T'Ka village, Dta Greh Township         INTERVIEWED: 5/97

["Naw Hser Muh" had just fled her village to become a refugee when this 
interview was conducted.  Her son Saw XXXX was murdered by SLORC and 
DKBA (see also interview with her daughter "Naw Paw Na Muh" in this 
report).]

Q:  When did you arrive here?
A:  Over 10 days ago.  We came via Meh Th'Wah Kee - two days climbing 
the mountains, we nearly died.  There were more than 20 of us, some from 
Bee T'Ka and others from Papun.

Q:  Tell us what happened to your son.
A:  Three months ago, they tortured two of them - tied them up, covered 
their faces and beat them badly, then his friend escaped and they killed 
him.  
They arrested my son on Tuesday and killed him on Saturday, held him for 
6 
days and killed him.  The Ko Per Baw gave him to the Burmese, and they 
tortured him and killed him.  His sister went after him and got the help 
of the 
senior monk at XXXX, but they wouldn't let her see him.  His wife went 
also 
but couldn't see him.  They just told us to wait.  They said we should 
bring 
the village headman, but he had run away so we couldn't find him.  The Ko 
Per Baw gave my son to the Burmese, and they took him somewhere else 
and questioned him about many things, but his friend told us that my son 
answered every question correctly so they knew he had done nothing wrong. 
 
But his friend was beaten and knew they were going to kill him, so he 
escaped.

His friend escaped on Friday.  After his friend escaped they ordered my 
son 
to show them his friend's goats, and then they killed him.  His friend 
had 
gone there to buy goats, and my son just went along hoping to get hired 
for 
money.  But they don't allow anyone to trade anything [without SLORC 
permission] - anyone who trades anything gets arrested.  His friend had 
bought only 5 goats.  My son had one child, his child is already 2 years 
old, 
and his wife was pregnant when he was killed.

Q:  Did people from your village have to build roads?
A:  Yes, people had to build the road but I couldn't, so I had to ask my 
daughter to go for me. My other sons had already fled and come here, so 
my 
daughter had to go.  It was the Nat Kyun road.  People over 40 years old 
and 
those as young as 12 had to go, and they all had to do the same work.  
Everyone had to dig and carry the earth.  The road was already made but 
we 
had to make it higher for the rainy season floods.  The road is wide 
enough 
for two trucks.

Q:  Did you ever have to be a porter?
A:  No, I was afraid to go so we had to hire people for 200 or 250 Kyats. 
 
They also made us go every morning to work for them, and we had to report 
all the information [on KNLA movements, etc.].  They ordered the 
villagers 
to stand guard while they slept, and whenever something happened or 
anyone 
came we were supposed to beat on a piece of bamboo.  So we beat on the 
bamboo, and then they came and beat us up.  Every night, two villagers 
had 
to go for the whole night and stand guard along the road from Peh Kru to 
Dta Greh.  Along the main road to Naw Ka Ya the villagers have to go and 
stand guard spaced all along the road, 2 people at each spot every night. 
 If 
we don't go they demand 1,500 Kyats.  Two men have died there because of 
snake bites.  The nurse tried to save them but couldn't.  There are many 
snakes there in hot season and rainy season.
___________________________________________________________________________
__
                                   #6.

[The following information was given by "Saw Pler Hai", a KNU medical 
officer in Pa'an District, from his notes, field reports and his own 
experience.]

On 29 December 1996, more than 30 men from SLORC Infantry Battalion #28 in
Lu Pleh, led by company commander Bo Kyaw Htoo and platoon commander
Bo Soe Pine, came to Ta Ku Kraw and Kwih Pa Taw villages, Noh Kweh village
tract, Dta Greh township.  They accused the villagers of supporting KNU 
and
forced all the villagers to leave their villages.  They said absolutely no
villagers could remain there, and gave an order that anyone seen in these
villages would be shot dead on sight.  The villagers were afraid
so they had to move to Tha Ya Gone, Tha Yeh Taw, and Naw Ter Hta 
villages.  The two villages moved have about 50 houses.  The SLORC 
soldiers burned down 7 houses and pulled down 6 others.  The 7 houses 
burned were home to 11 men and 10 women, total 21 people.  The 6 houses 
torn down were home to 12 men and 12 women, total 24 people [he gave 
names of all the house owners but these are omitted here for brevity].  
The 
forced relocation order was given by IB #28 Battalion Commander Tin 
Hlaing Htun.  Because of the move, the villagers had to face many 
hardships 
and diseases such as cholera and malaria.

>From the information I have, the villages I know were forced to move or 
burned are Ta Ku Kraw, Kwih Pa Taw, and Noh Law Bler.  There are over 
150 households altogether in these 3 villages.  They all had to move 
between 
November 1996 and February 1997.  They were ordered to combine 
together all at one place at Naw Deh.  There are no houses there, those 
who 
went are just staying in makeshift shelters.  Ta Ku Kraw village was 
burned 
down, they had to run and live in the forest.  Then from 16 February to 6 
March 1997 the Burmese forced Tee Hseh Ker, Naw Ter Kee, Bee T'Ka, 
and Kaw Per Nweh Ko villages to move and burned people's houses.  The 
SLORC officers responsible were Infantry Battalion #28 Major Nyunt Saung 
and [company commander] Bo Kyaw Htoo.  The people from Naw Ter Kee 
village had to flee with their cattle and buffalos to the mountains and 
stay 
there because they have no houses to live in now.  Bee T'Ka was ordered 
to 
move to Taung Zone, where the Burmese have a big post, but they didn't 
dare go there so they fled into the forest.

Here are some photos: this is Ta Ku Kraw village, showing the houses all 
burned down.  The villagers have fled to other places, they can't dare 
stay 
there.  And this photo is a villager named Saw P--- from XXXX village in 
front of his burned house.  Major Nyunt Saung and Bo Kyaw Htoo and their 
group took 3 of his cattle from his field on March 6th and asked for 
money 
for them, then they took them.  Saw P--- had to run and can't dare stay 
in the 
village any longer.

I know that they burned down 16 houses in Tee Wah Klay in March.  Two 
days ago some villagers from Tee Wah Klay came through here, they said 
they didn't dare stay in that area anymore.  They said the Burmese came 
in 
March and everyone ran, so they opened fire and one young man was shot 
dead [Pa Ter Ler - see the testimony of "Maung Than" below].  I think the 
reason they burned Tee Wah Klay but not the other villages nearby is that 
Tee Wah Klay is closest to the mountains [it is just on the western side 
of the 
Dawna Mountains, where the KNLA operates extensively].

SLORC will never give the villagers any medicine or any help.  Some 
villagers
are still trying to stay in their home areas, but many don't dare.  Even
those who stay there can't stay all together or in their villages.  I 
think it 
would not be easy for them to flee to Thailand, because there are many 
difficulties - it is hard for them to move with their families, there are 
SLORC 
and DKBA, and there may be some mines along the way.

[The following was added by "Maung Than", a 40 year old Karen medic 
from Pa'an District who had just returned from Tee Wah Klay:]

Tee Wah Klay village had about 30 houses.  On March 21st the Burmese 
burned down 16 houses.   I was there very close by when they burned the 
houses.  There were no Ko Per Baw, only SLORC.  There were 160 soldiers 
from Battalions #97 and #357.  They are from Nabu and Tu Kaw Ko area.  
There were also troops from #547, 548 and 549 [Light Infantry] 
Battalions, 
with #547 in control.  They combined with #97 at Thingan Nyi Naung and 
came all together.  There were many officers with them, but Major Thu Ray 
Zaw was in control.  They did it just to oppress the people - they 
usually burn 
the villages and rice storage barns when they come.  They also burned the 
pots, plates, people's clothing and all their belongings.  The villagers 
ran 
away, they couldn't stay.  The Burmese also shot dead one villager in Tee 
Wah Klay.  His name was Pa Ter Ler.  He was 30, married with 3 children.  
Now his wife is staying in XXXX.

Now the SLORC is not near Tee Wah Klay so the villagers have come back 
and stay near the village, but whenever SLORC comes near they run and 
stay 
out in the forest.  Some of their gardens were burned, and it's very hard 
for 
them to survive.  When it starts raining I don't think they can live in 
the
forest anymore, they'll have to find some other way.  At Tee Wah Klay,
Per Way, Thay Mo Pah Kee, Day Law Pya, and Meh Pleh Wah Kee there are now 
many who are sick, but they have no medicine and no medics.  Many of 
them are suffering from cholera, diarrhoea and malaria.  There have been 
many deaths, mostly children around 2, 4 and 5 years old.  In these 5 
villages, some people are in their villages and many are in the forest.  
They 
haven't been ordered to move yet, but when the Burmese came they ran 
away into the forest.  There are no Kaw Thoo Lei soldiers, only the 
villagers.  
There is no fighting in these villages.

Q:  Then why do you think the SLORC does this to them?
A:  I think this is just the SLORC custom.  Whenever they go to places 
where indigenous people have land,  they demand forced labour or when 
they see people they kill them and burn their houses, food, rice...  They 
take 
or burn their clothes and even their cookpots and pans.  That is just 
what 
they usually do.

I think the villagers are thinking of going to Thailand if the conditions 
get 
worse.  It is one day's walk over the mountains, but they have to be 
afraid of 
the Burmese soldiers and the mines.  We don't usually see DKBA around 
that area, but we heard that they were patrolling further south.

["Saw Pler Hai" (see above) continued:]

In Tee Hseh Ker village, LIB #549 Major Ko Ko Lay took 60,000 Kyats, a 
watch, clothing and a big pig by force from Naw M---.  And at the end of 
February in Meh Pleh Wah Kee village, SLORC and DKBA came together 
and killed Saw Maung Kler, age 33.  His wife is now left alone with their 
5 
children.  There was no reason for killing him, he just didn't satisfy 
them 
somehow so they shot him dead.  His wife saw them shoot her husband with 
her own eyes.

In Teh Bu village of Dta Greh township, villager Naw Paw Kler Mu was shot 
dead by a soldier under Major Nyunt Saung from IB #28.  She was only 7 
years old.  How can a child that age have done anything wrong?  They shot 
her in her house.  The soldier was drunk and so this happened.  She was 
shot 
on 20 March 1997.
___________________________________________________________________________
__

       - [END OF PART 2 - SEE SUBSEQUENT POSTINGS FOR PARTS 3 AND 4] -