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- Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:06:00
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Aung San Suu Kyi: "This government is not capable of running the =
economy"
TIME contributor Sandra Burton met with opposition leader Aung San Suu =
Kyi on Oct. 22 to discuss the recent visit of United Nations Special =
Envoy Alvar De Soto and his efforts to promote national reconciliation =
and the restoration of democracy. (A few days later, she also met with =
Foreign Minister Win Aung.) The following is the complete transcript of =
Burton's meeting with Aung San Suu Kyi=20
Peter Charlesworth/Saba for TIME
Aung San Su Kyi at the NLD offices in Rangoon.
=20
TIME: Do you think anything significant will come out of this latest =
visit by the U.N. Special Envoy?=20
Suu Kyi: We think this is one of many initiatives going on, so we don't =
think it is particularly significant. As you are probably aware, this =
has been going on for some time. This was not the first time that Mr. De =
Soto has visited Burma. In fact, this is the fourth time. So it is =
nothing new and just one of many things going on about Burma.=20
TIME: In any of the initiatives that are going on, do you see any hope =
of the kind of dialogue that both sides talk about but have failed to =
achieve for all these years?=20
Suu Kyi: I think by now I have made it fairly clear that I am not very =
happy with the word "hope." I don't believe in people just hoping. We =
work for what we want. I always say that one has no right to hope =
without endeavor, so we work to try and bring about the situation that =
is necessary for the country, and we are confident that we will get to =
the negotiation table at one time or another. This is the way all such =
situations pan out-- even with the most truculent dictator.=20
ALSO IN TIME =20
Burma: Signs of Hope?=20
Burma's ruling junta continues to squabble with Aung San Suu =
Kyi, but the generals now seem more attentive to international calls for =
reform=20
Aung San Suu Kyi: 'This government is not capable of running =
the economy'=20
Online Exclusive: Full text of TIME's interview with Aung =
San Suu Kyi=20
Win Aung: 'Sincerity is needed on their side'=20
Online Exclusive: Full text of TIME's interview with Foreign =
Minister Win Aung=20
=20
=20
RELATED STORIES =20
ASIAWEEK
A Siege--of Sorts=20
Behind the drama at Myanmar's embassy (10/15/99)=20
Myanmar: In Exile and Powerless=20
Still, Myanmar's dissidents keep up the fight (10/08/99)=20
The Asiaweek Power 50 1999: Aung San Suu Kyi
Who are the most powerful people in Asia?=20
=20
=20
TIME: Do any of these initiatives help prod a dialogue to take place, or =
on the contrary, do they just prolong it by offering endless chances for =
one side or another to make diversions?=20
Suu Kyi: These days I am using the analogy to answer the question which =
so many people ask me: what do I think about this stalemate? I have to =
question them about what exactly they mean by "stalemate." If you look =
at the democratic process as a game of chess, there have to be many, =
many moves before you get to checkmate. And simply because you do not =
make any checkmate in three moves does not mean it's stalemate. There's =
a vast difference between no checkmate and stalemate. This is what the =
democratic process is like. If you say that any of these processes nudge =
one or the other toward dialogue, it is not always possible to see at =
the time. Because if you go back to this game of chess, it is not =
possible to see whether one or the other will hasten the process of =
getting to checkmate or whether it will drag it out a bit--because =
sometimes in chess you move sideways, as it were. It is not a direct =
step-by-step pattern in one straight line.=20
TIME: Back to the UN: I spoke with the Foreign Minister [of Myanmar, U =
Win Aung] recently, and to paraphrase, his language was rather positive. =
He summed it up by saying the "horizon is misty," but he allowed that =
the dry season has just started and he suggested that perhaps clarity is =
not so far behind. He talked about an "exchange of views" with De Soto =
in which he did not characterize you as the "opposition" because, he =
said, "we are only a caretaker government, we are only contesting power, =
so I won't call them the opposition." Is this a more conciliatory tone =
toward you?=20
Suu Kyi: This is nothing new. In recent months they have been taking =
this line that there is no opposition in Burma. In fact, what they are =
really trying to get at is that they are an unopposed government--that =
there is no opposition in Burma. This has been going on for several =
months now--this statement coming from various directions that there is =
no opposition in Burma.=20
TIME: The government also spends a lot of time talking about the ethnic =
minorities and how until you settle that problem, no government can =
really function--that the next government to emerge will benefit from =
the kind of talks that are going on.=20
Suu Kyi: Why don't you talk to the ethnic minorities and find out what =
they feel about it? We don't represent an ethnic minority party. Mind =
you, in the CRPP [the Committee Representing the People's Parliament), =
which the NLD announced last year] there are four ethnic nationality =
parties represented. I would suggest that you talk to them directly. =
That would be better than getting my views or those of the SPDC [State =
Peace and Development Council], which always would, of course, be in =
their own favor.=20
TIME: But in terms of this emphasis on "security first" which SLORC =
[State Law and Restoration Council] and then the SPDC have talked about =
for as long as they have been in power...?=20
Suu Kyi: All military regimes use security as the reason why they should =
remain in power. It's nothing original.=20
TIME: Is security nonetheless an important element in a country that is =
so ethnically diverse as Burma?=20
Suu Kyi: Wouldn't you say that unity comes first? Out of unity comes =
security. I don't think you can impose security from on top. Just look =
at Yugoslavia. For years it seemed as if everything was quiescent, but =
this was not the kind of security you would like--something that was =
imposed on the people and not something that had arisen from trust and =
understanding between them. So I think we want to put unity first. Out =
of real unity--which can only be based on understanding and mutual =
respect--will come the kind of security that we really want and the =
people really want.=20
TIME: You've mentioned from the start that you are not against the =
military--you are the daughter of the founder of it--but what value =
would you place on security if you were to have a more powerful role?=20
Suu Kyi: Are you asking whether if the NLD were in power, would we use =
security as an excuse to do what we want? We certainly would not.=20
TIME: But would security be an important element of your program?=20
Suu Kyi: Every government must consider the security of the country. =
That is just part of the responsibilities of any government. But true =
security can only come out of unity within a country where there are so =
many ethnic nationalities.=20
TIME: Doesn't the number of ethnic nationalities complicate the whole =
political situation in Burma?=20
Suu Kyi: If you mean does it complicate the process of democratization, =
no. It's only that the SPDC wants to use it as an excuse to complicate =
the situation. We have very good relations with the ethnic minorities, =
and I would like to point out that two of the ethnic nationality parties =
represented in the CRPP were second and third after the NLD in the [1990 =
elections]. They won more seats than the NUP [the government party], =
which was fourth among the parties. We were of course the frontrunner. =
So you could say that we have managed to reach an understanding with =
some of the most important ethnic nationality groups. If given half a =
chance we could establish perfectly good relations with the ceasefire =
groups. If the SPDC wants to test it, why don't they let us meet the =
ceasefire groups and see how we get on?=20
TIME: Are they segregated from you?=20
Suu Kyi: They are not allowed to meet the NLD. I'm sure they are not =
allowed to, and if the SPDC really wants to find out whether we are =
capable of achieving unity with the ethnic nationalities in addition to =
the ones with whom we are already officially working together, then =
arrange an official meeting with the ceasefire groups. We are not afraid =
of such a meeting. We think that only positive things can come out of =
such a meeting.=20
TIME: Is this something that comes up in talks you would have with a =
visitor like De Soto? De Soto was, according to the government, =
apparently talking with them at some length about the ethnic minorities. =
Suu Kyi: I'm sure Mr. De Soto knows--at least he should know--that four =
of the largest ethnic nationality parties are represented in the CRPP, =
so he doesn't have to ask us about our relations with them.=20
TIME: In the 1990 election and in the parliament that was elected, =
aren't the ethnic minorities an important part of that? What is your =
strength in that regard?=20
Suu Kyi: We won a majority of seats in a number of ethnic states, =
including the Kachin, Karen and Mon. Not in the Shan and not in the =
Arakan, but it is with those two parties that we are working together =
now--along with two other parties--in the CRPP. So there is perfect =
understanding and friendship between us and ethnic nationality parties. =
We understand them. They want to represent their own states and that's =
no problem for us. We can still work together. We don't believe in a =
zero-sum situation. It doesn't mean that if we don't win, the party that =
wins becomes the enemy. In fact, we look on them as our allies, and we =
are very happy that our allies are well represented in their states.=20
TIME: In terms of some kind of dialogue at some point, I was around when =
you had the first of two sessions of dialogue back in 1994, and when the =
talks broke down, that was it. Has anything moved closer to dialogue =
since then? Are there any kinds of initiatives going on behind the =
scenes?=20
Suu Kyi: Regarding dialogue, whatever we have to say about it we will =
say officially, so I'm afraid we won't say anything that is not an =
official party statement.=20
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<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#cc0000 =
face=3Dhelvetica,arial,sans-serif=20
size=3D5><B>Aung San Suu Kyi: "This government is not capable of running =
the=20
economy"</B><BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#666666 =
face=3Dhelvetica,arial,sans-serif=20
size=3D3><B>TIME contributor Sandra Burton met with opposition leader =
Aung San Suu=20
Kyi on Oct. 22 to discuss the recent visit of United Nations Special =
Envoy Alvar=20
De Soto and his efforts to promote national reconciliation and the =
restoration=20
of democracy. (A few days later, she also met with <A=20
href=3D"http://www.cnn.com/ASIANOW/time/magazine/99/1115/burma.winaung.ht=
ml">Foreign=20
Minister Win Aung</A>.) The following is the complete transcript of =
Burton's=20
meeting with Aung San Suu Kyi </B><BR></FONT><BR><!--LEAD PHOTO =
INCLUDE-->
<TABLE align=3Dleft border=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 cellSpacing=3D0 =
width=3D160>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=3Dtop><IMG align=3Dtop alt=3D"" border=3D1 height=3D225=20
src=3D"http://www.cnn.com/ASIANOW/time/magazine/99/1115/aung.jpg"=20
width=3D150><BR><FONT color=3D#666666 face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, =
sans-serif"=20
size=3D1>Peter Charlesworth/Saba for TIME<BR><STRONG>Aung San Su =
Kyi at the=20
NLD offices in Rangoon.</STRONG></FONT><BR></TD>
<TD><IMG alt=3D"" border=3D0 height=3D1=20
src=3D"http://www.cnn.com/ASIANOW/images/main/spacer1x1.gif"=20
width=3D10></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!--/LEAD PHOTO INCLUDE--><FONT =
color=3D#000000=20
face=3Darial,helvetica,sans-serif size=3D2><STRONG>TIME:</STRONG> Do you =
think=20
anything significant will come out of this latest visit by the U.N. =
Special=20
Envoy? <BR><STRONG>Suu Kyi:</STRONG> We think this is one of many =
initiatives=20
going on, so we don't think it is particularly significant. As you are =
probably=20
aware, this has been going on for some time. This was not the first time =
that=20
Mr. De Soto has visited Burma. In fact, this is the fourth time. So it =
is=20
nothing new and just one of many things going on about Burma.=20
<BR><BR><STRONG>TIME:</STRONG> In any of the initiatives that are going =
on, do=20
you see any hope of the kind of dialogue that both sides talk about but =
have=20
failed to achieve for all these years? <BR><STRONG>Suu Kyi:</STRONG> I =
think by=20
now I have made it fairly clear that I am not very happy with the word =
"hope." I=20
don't believe in people just hoping. We work for what we want. I always =
say that=20
one has no right to hope without endeavor, so we work to try and bring =
about the=20
situation that is necessary for the country, and we are confident that =
we will=20
get to the negotiation table at one time or another. This is the way all =
such=20
situations pan out-- even with the most truculent dictator. =
<BR></FONT><BR><!--TIME FLOATING MORE STORIES BOX--><A name=3Dmore></A>
<TABLE align=3Dright border=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 cellSpacing=3D0 =
width=3D165>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD rowSpan=3D30 width=3D15> </TD>
<TD bgColor=3D#cc0000 colSpan=3D3 width=3D150><IMG align=3Dleft =
alt=3D"" border=3D0=20
height=3D14 hspace=3D0=20
src=3D"http://www.cnn.com/ASIANOW/images/main/arrow_right_red.gif"; =
width=3D14> <FONT color=3D#ffffff =
face=3Dhelvetica,arial,sans-serif=20
size=3D1><B>ALSO IN TIME</B></FONT> </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD colSpan=3D3>
<TABLE border=3D0 cellPadding=3D3 cellSpacing=3D0 width=3D150>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD colSpan=3D3><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica,sans-serif =
size=3D2><A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.cnn.com/ASIANOW/time/magazine/99/1115/burma.economic.r=
uin.html"><STRONG>Burma:=20
Signs of Hope?</STRONG></A> <BR>Burma's ruling junta =
continues to=20
squabble with Aung San Suu Kyi, but the generals now seem =
more=20
attentive to international calls for reform <BR><BR><A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.cnn.com/ASIANOW/time/magazine/99/1115/burma.aungsansuu=
kyi.html"><STRONG>Aung=20
San Suu Kyi: 'This government is not capable of running the=20
economy'</STRONG></A> <BR>Online Exclusive: Full text of =
TIME's=20
interview with Aung San Suu Kyi <BR><BR><A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.cnn.com/ASIANOW/time/magazine/99/1115/burma.winaung.ht=
ml"><STRONG>Win=20
Aung: 'Sincerity is needed on their side'</STRONG></A> =
<BR>Online=20
Exclusive: Full text of TIME's interview with Foreign =
Minister Win=20
Aung =
<BR></FONT><BR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><!--RELATED-->
<TR>
<TD bgColor=3D#333333 colSpan=3D3 width=3D150><IMG align=3Dleft =
alt=3D"" border=3D0=20
height=3D14 hspace=3D0=20
=
src=3D"http://www.cnn.com/ASIANOW/images/main/arrow_right_grey.gif"=20
width=3D14> <FONT color=3D#ffffff =
face=3Dhelvetica,arial,sans-serif=20
size=3D1><B>RELATED STORIES</B></FONT> </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD bgColor=3D#eeeeee colSpan=3D3>
<TABLE border=3D0 cellPadding=3D3 cellSpacing=3D0 width=3D150>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD colSpan=3D3><FONT color=3D#000000 =
face=3Darial,helvetica,sans-serif=20
size=3D2><STRONG>ASIAWEEK</STRONG><BR><A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.cnn.com/ASIANOW/asiaweek/magazine/99/1015/thailand.htm=
l"><B>A=20
Siege--of Sorts</B></A> <BR>Behind the drama at Myanmar's =
embassy=20
(10/15/99) <BR><BR><A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.cnn.com/ASIANOW/asiaweek/magazine/99/1008/nat_myanmar_=
dissidents.html"><STRONG>Myanmar:=20
In Exile and Powerless</STRONG></A> <BR>Still, Myanmar's =
dissidents=20
keep up the fight (10/08/99) <BR><BR><B><A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.cnn.com/ASIANOW/asiaweek/power50/1999/45_50.html";>The =
Asiaweek Power 50 1999: Aung San Suu Kyi</A></B><BR>Who are =
the most=20
powerful people in Asia? =
<BR></FONT><BR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><!--END =
RELATED--></TBODY></TABLE><!--/TIME MORE STORIES BOX--><FONT=20
color=3D#000000 face=3Darial,helvetica,sans-serif =
size=3D2><STRONG>TIME:</STRONG> Do=20
any of these initiatives help prod a dialogue to take place, or on the =
contrary,=20
do they just prolong it by offering endless chances for one side or =
another to=20
make diversions? <BR><STRONG>Suu Kyi:</STRONG> These days I am using the =
analogy=20
to answer the question which so many people ask me: what do I think =
about this=20
stalemate? I have to question them about what exactly they mean by =
"stalemate."=20
If you look at the democratic process as a game of chess, there have to =
be many,=20
many moves before you get to checkmate. And simply because you do not =
make any=20
checkmate in three moves does not mean it's stalemate. There's a vast =
difference=20
between no checkmate and stalemate. This is what the democratic process =
is like.=20
If you say that any of these processes nudge one or the other toward =
dialogue,=20
it is not always possible to see at the time. Because if you go back to =
this=20
game of chess, it is not possible to see whether one or the other will =
hasten=20
the process of getting to checkmate or whether it will drag it out a=20
bit--because sometimes in chess you move sideways, as it were. It is not =
a=20
direct step-by-step pattern in one straight line. =
<BR><BR><STRONG>TIME:</STRONG>=20
Back to the UN: I spoke with the Foreign Minister [of Myanmar, U Win =
Aung]=20
recently, and to paraphrase, his language was rather positive. He summed =
it up=20
by saying the "horizon is misty," but he allowed that the dry season has =
just=20
started and he suggested that perhaps clarity is not so far behind. He =
talked=20
about an "exchange of views" with De Soto in which he did not =
characterize you=20
as the "opposition" because, he said, "we are only a caretaker =
government, we=20
are only contesting power, so I won't call them the opposition." Is this =
a more=20
conciliatory tone toward you? <BR><STRONG>Suu Kyi:</STRONG> This is =
nothing new.=20
In recent months they have been taking this line that there is no =
opposition in=20
Burma. In fact, what they are really trying to get at is that they are =
an=20
unopposed government--that there is no opposition in Burma. This has =
been going=20
on for several months now--this statement coming from various directions =
that=20
there is no opposition in Burma. <BR><BR><STRONG>TIME:</STRONG> The =
government=20
also spends a lot of time talking about the ethnic minorities and how =
until you=20
settle that problem, no government can really function--that the next =
government=20
to emerge will benefit from the kind of talks that are going on. =
<BR><STRONG>Suu=20
Kyi:</STRONG> Why don't you talk to the ethnic minorities and find out =
what they=20
feel about it? We don't represent an ethnic minority party. Mind you, in =
the=20
CRPP [the Committee Representing the People's Parliament), which the NLD =
announced last year] there are four ethnic nationality parties =
represented. I=20
would suggest that you talk to them directly. That would be better than =
getting=20
my views or those of the SPDC [State Peace and Development Council], =
which=20
always would, of course, be in their own favor. =
<BR><BR><STRONG>TIME:</STRONG>=20
But in terms of this emphasis on "security first" which SLORC [State Law =
and=20
Restoration Council] and then the SPDC have talked about for as long as =
they=20
have been in power...? <BR><STRONG>Suu Kyi:</STRONG> All military =
regimes use=20
security as the reason why they should remain in power. It's nothing =
original.=20
<BR><BR><STRONG>TIME:</STRONG> Is security nonetheless an important =
element in a=20
country that is so ethnically diverse as Burma? <BR><STRONG>Suu =
Kyi:</STRONG>=20
Wouldn't you say that unity comes first? Out of unity comes security. I =
don't=20
think you can impose security from on top. Just look at Yugoslavia. For =
years it=20
seemed as if everything was quiescent, but this was not the kind of =
security you=20
would like--something that was imposed on the people and not something =
that had=20
arisen from trust and understanding between them. So I think we want to =
put=20
unity first. Out of real unity--which can only be based on understanding =
and=20
mutual respect--will come the kind of security that we really want and =
the=20
people really want. <BR><BR><STRONG>TIME:</STRONG> You've mentioned from =
the=20
start that you are not against the military--you are the daughter of the =
founder=20
of it--but what value would you place on security if you were to have a =
more=20
powerful role? <BR><STRONG>Suu Kyi:</STRONG> Are you asking whether if =
the NLD=20
were in power, would we use security as an excuse to do what we want? We =
certainly would not. <BR><BR><STRONG>TIME:</STRONG> But would security =
be an=20
important element of your program? <BR><STRONG>Suu Kyi:</STRONG> Every=20
government must consider the security of the country. That is just part =
of the=20
responsibilities of any government. But true security can only come out =
of unity=20
within a country where there are so many ethnic nationalities.=20
<BR><BR><STRONG>TIME:</STRONG> Doesn't the number of ethnic =
nationalities=20
complicate the whole political situation in Burma? <BR><STRONG>Suu =
Kyi:</STRONG>=20
If you mean does it complicate the process of democratization, no. It's =
only=20
that the SPDC wants to use it as an excuse to complicate the situation. =
We have=20
very good relations with the ethnic minorities, and I would like to =
point out=20
that two of the ethnic nationality parties represented in the CRPP were =
second=20
and third after the NLD in the [1990 elections]. They won more seats =
than the=20
NUP [the government party], which was fourth among the parties. We were =
of=20
course the frontrunner. So you could say that we have managed to reach =
an=20
understanding with some of the most important ethnic nationality groups. =
If=20
given half a chance we could establish perfectly good relations with the =
ceasefire groups. If the SPDC wants to test it, why don't they let us =
meet the=20
ceasefire groups and see how we get on? <BR><BR><STRONG>TIME:</STRONG> =
Are they=20
segregated from you? <BR><STRONG>Suu Kyi:</STRONG> They are not allowed =
to meet=20
the NLD. I'm sure they are not allowed to, and if the SPDC really wants =
to find=20
out whether we are capable of achieving unity with the ethnic =
nationalities in=20
addition to the ones with whom we are already officially working =
together, then=20
arrange an official meeting with the ceasefire groups. We are not afraid =
of such=20
a meeting. We think that only positive things can come out of such a =
meeting.=20
<BR><BR><STRONG>TIME:</STRONG> Is this something that comes up in talks =
you=20
would have with a visitor like De Soto? De Soto was, according to the=20
government, apparently talking with them at some length about the ethnic =
minorities. <BR><STRONG>Suu Kyi:</STRONG> I'm sure Mr. De Soto knows--at =
least=20
he should know--that four of the largest ethnic nationality parties are=20
represented in the CRPP, so he doesn't have to ask us about our =
relations with=20
them. <BR><BR><STRONG>TIME:</STRONG> In the 1990 election and in the =
parliament=20
that was elected, aren't the ethnic minorities an important part of =
that? What=20
is your strength in that regard? <BR><STRONG>Suu Kyi:</STRONG> We won a =
majority=20
of seats in a number of ethnic states, including the Kachin, Karen and =
Mon. Not=20
in the Shan and not in the Arakan, but it is with those two parties that =
we are=20
working together now--along with two other parties--in the CRPP. So =
there is=20
perfect understanding and friendship between us and ethnic nationality =
parties.=20
We understand them. They want to represent their own states and that's =
no=20
problem for us. We can still work together. We don't believe in a =
zero-sum=20
situation. It doesn't mean that if we don't win, the party that wins =
becomes the=20
enemy. In fact, we look on them as our allies, and we are very happy =
that our=20
allies are well represented in their states. =
<BR><BR><STRONG>TIME:</STRONG> In=20
terms of some kind of dialogue at some point, I was around when you had =
the=20
first of two sessions of dialogue back in 1994, and when the talks broke =
down,=20
that was it. Has anything moved closer to dialogue since then? Are there =
any=20
kinds of initiatives going on behind the scenes? <BR><STRONG>Suu =
Kyi:</STRONG>=20
Regarding dialogue, whatever we have to say about it we will say =
officially, so=20
I'm afraid we won't say anything that is not an official party =
statement.=20
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